A Question on ethics

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by DeusExMe

It is indeed a deep issue. I've thought through some of these issues and reached as many confusions as I have conclusion.



In my estimation, if I buy the intellectual property "Ender's Game" (as an example) from the Microsoft Reader store (continuing the example, or if Microsoft has a promotion and gives the thing to me for that matter) I now have the right to enjoy my purchase in any manner I see fit. Certainly I can purchase a Microsoft Reader if I so desire and read it that way. However, to take actions with my own personal file, which is legally mine, which makes that file readable on my Sony Reader, seems well within my rights. I am not certain if the U.S. law governing such things would back me up, but I am fairly certain that it is the right thing.

Actually, it's not legal in the US. A LRF ebook made from a LIT is a derivative work. Unless you have been granted the right to make it, it's not legal.

Of course, if you never tell anyone, Who Cares?

[RWood]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Actually, it's not legal in the US. A LRF ebook made from a LIT is a derivative work. Unless you have been granted the right to make it, it's not legal.

Of course, if you never tell anyone, Who Cares?

It is a derivative work if you sell it. In the same line as those who sample other's music, alter it in some way, and then publish it in CDs or albums for sale. Here we are talking about fair use for one's on benefit.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by RWood

It is a derivative work if you sell it. In the same line as those who sample other's music, alter it in some way, and then publish it in CDs or albums for sale. Here we are talking about fair use for one's on benefit.

I just finished an ethics and law class in May as part of my BS Computer Science. You're wrong. It's a derivative work to change from one form to another. The commercial aspect is a separate part of copyright law.

Again, i don't really care. It doesn't really matter.

[NatCh]

It may be a difference between practical and legal definitions -- we all know how tightly bound together those two things are.

[nekokami]

It seems to me that if you were to scan a book yourself so you could read it online, without planning to distribute it, it would be equivalent to making cassette tapes from a vinyl LP or CD to play in your car, and not that far off from time-shift video taping (which the US Supreme Court explicitly ruled as legal). Does anyone know about the legality of cassette tape conversion for personal use, in any country?

[pwalker8]

As with many things, what is legal depends on who you ask and when. Disney's VP has said that he considers it illegal to record a program and not watch the commercials. Few would agree with that assessment. The legality of changing the formats of an e-book hasn't been determined by the courts yet, although the most recent cases have said that as long as you do it for your personal use, it's considered fair use under copyright laws (that's where I think a previous poster is getting confused. People who get nail for derivative works get nailed for using them for commercial ventures such as remixing songs) . What is illegal is to defeat the DRM of that e-book when you change the format.

From a practical point of view, as long as you do not try to sale a copy or brag about it, I doubt if anyone will come after you.

From an ethical point of view, you could make the argument that as long as you own a hard copy of a book, then it's not unethical to get a computer copy of that same book, be it by scanning it yourself or downloading from the various irc or newgroups that specialize in such things, especially if the computer copy is not otherwise available. (just watch out for virus and the like). Some lawyers and authors might disagree with that, though I can quote others who think it's perfectly alright. Of course, some authors think it unethical to borrow a book from a library (and no, I'm not making that up) though I know of none who argue that it's illegal.

However, I would said that as a practical point, the more copies that a writer sales, the more likely he or she is to continue writing. I have been known to buy hard back and ebook copies of books that I like, just for that reason. Over the years, I've purchased roughly 600 ebooks for that reason. I've had too many authors that I like who give up writing not to try to support them to the best of my ability. I'm a very selfish guy in that respect, you know. <grin>

[MacBeezle]

Originally Posted by NatCh

... which has no bearing on DeusExMe's service to his ....

But if that's his only problem he has a very unspectacular life^^

[DeusExMe]

Does anyone know where I can purchase C.S. Lewis e-books which are naturally compatible with the PRS 500? (I realize this is slightly off topic). I've hardly been able to locate them at all...with the exception of a single book of poetry which is in the Public Domain.

Thank you all so much for helping me think through these issues and begin to gain a bit more clarity.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by MacBeezle

But if that's his only problem he has a very sad life^^

There are those who would reply that having nothing higher than one's own whims to serve sounds like a pretty futile way to live.

However, if they made such an observation I would point out to them, as I am ponting out now, that this is not the place for such discussions.

The subject is totally off the entire range of topics that MobileRead exists to explore (not to mention the topic of this thread), and it's extremely likely to cause strife, without any likelihood of producing anything worthwhile.

We've worked very hard to create a community where ideas can be exchanged and explored respectfully amongst the members, without fear of the kind of rancor that's likely to come from such discussions, and we tend to be pretty protective of that sense of community, and goodwill.



So, I guess then that the real question is, what do you think about the ethics of using/downloading/making electronic copies of books that you own or don't own, from the perspective of your ethical and moral world view, MacBeezle?

Personally, while I believe very strongly in the idea that authors and publishers deserve to benefit from their efforts, and that copyright laws are a good concept (however poorly implemented I might feel they currently are in my country), I figure if I've got a paper copy, then I am accounting for one of the copies that the author and publisher were paid for, and I don't really have any qualms about acquiring and reading an electronic copy that may have come from somewhere other than the publisher or author.

I have one copy that was paid for, and I'm only reading one copy, and I'm not spreading any other copies around, so I don't have any ethical problem, and I frankly consider such a scenario to be 'fair use' even though the law may technically disagree with me, and many publishers and authors may vehemently disagree with me.

How do you see those factors interacting from your perspective, MacBeezle?

[yvanleterrible]

There is an ethical point I'd like to see resolved.

Many people buy books and records used. I do most of mine and not out of greed. When one buys used, nothing goes to the author. Should we outlaw used media outlets? I would like to see funds reach the authors in more ways, what they get is often ridiculous.

I feel that a basic direct sales approach such as Steve Jordan's is the better choice for authors. I'd like to see it combined with something else. When someone buys at Connect as an example, a certain part goes back to the author. Things should be the other way around but that is pure utopia. Here is my suggestion. There could be a site with book choices, click on titles and the sales are redirected to the author's site; he pays back the distributor. Everything could be automated and most of the funds generated by this type of coop would support its infrastructure and promotion of the works.

[HarryT]

I would make an ethical distriction between downloading an eBook where one is available commercially, and downloading one in a situation where one is not commercially available.

Where an eBook can be commercially bought, I would personally always buy it, even in cases where I've already bought the paperback. I don't personally feel that buying the paperback gives me any "rights" to that book in electronic form.

In cases, however, where there IS no commercial eBook available, and I've bought the book in paper form (in some cases a number of times), I personally don't feel any ethical qualms about downloading an eBook, although I'm certainly not kidding myself that it's legal for me to do so. In this category I'd put such books as Harry Potter, LOTR, etc. Having bought at least half a dozen versions of LOTR over the decades, from cheap paperbacks to $200+ fancy illustrated hardbacks I figure that Mr. Tolkein's estate has had more than its money's worth out of me.

[volwrath]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Where an eBook can be commercially bought, I would personally always buy it, even in cases where I've already bought the paperback. I don't personally feel that buying the paperback gives me any "rights" to that book in electronic form.

Interesting that you don't feel buying the paperback gives you rights to the ebook format if its available for sell. What about if you ripped the paperback up, scanned the documents, and OCRed it yourself? Would that make a difference? And if that is acceptable, what the difference between you doing it and someone else doing it.

[MacBeezle]

Originally Posted by NatCh

that this is not the place for such discussions.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by NatCh

So, I guess then that the real question is, what do you think about the ethics of using/downloading/making electronic copies of books that you own or don't own, from the perspective of your ethical and moral world view, MacBeezle?

I'll keep my thoughts about that to myself

[slayda]

Originally Posted by volwrath

Interesting that you don't feel buying the paperback gives you rights to the ebook format if its available for sell. What about if you ripped the paperback up, scanned the documents, and OCRed it yourself? Would that make a difference? And if that is acceptable, what the difference between you doing it and someone else doing it.

The difference is in the distribution. Fair use may include my "media shifting" of a book I own but would not include giving a copy (that I made) to someone else. That is one aspect of the original ethics that doesn't seem to be addressed -i.e. "Is it ethical to download an illegally distributed copy of an ebook, regardless of what you have previously purchased?"

Keep in mind that even though the society's mores, which are essentially made up of the accumulated individual's ethical sense, generally create the country's laws (at least in the US), more often than not it is "whoever has the most money" that really make things legal or not. This is why, for example, it is illegal to build your own device to unencrypt video signals that the video satellites freely beam down on you, whether you want them or not. Those companies have spent more money lobbying the the everyday citizen has.

[rwsimon]

Ethical issues related to copyrighted material have gotten so much more complicated in the era of digital media. There has never been an ethical problem associated with loaning somebody a book (or a record or a tape or such) when it was a matter of passing physical media back and forth. However, in the digital age, how does one "loan" somebody an e-book, for example, when both parties will at that point have the item in question? It seems to me that the properties of digital media cannot have changed the moral standing of lending one's property to another. However, if such a loan is no problem, one can quickly extrapolate to propagating the book to an unlimited number of people, one friend at a time. It's not an easy issue, but I guess it's one we're stuck with.